"There's no question of allying with the BJP. I won't join hands with them even if they make me the chief minister of Uttar Pradesh," says Aazad Samaj Party (Kanshi Ram) chief Chandrashekhar Azad, emphasising that he is an ideological opponent of the BJP.
In an exclusive interview with senior journalist Javed M Ansari, Azad discusses his alliance plans for the 2027 Uttar Pradesh and Uttarakhand elections, his equation with Bahujan Samaj Party supremo Mayawati, the nuances within Ambedkarite politics and his views on the recent 'Gen-Z' protests.
Here's the complete transcript of the interview.
Hello, I am sitting with Mr Chandrashekhar Azad Ravan. He is the Member of Parliament from Nagina and also the national president of the Aazad Samaj Party, Kanshi Ram.
Why “Aazad Samaj Party, Kanshi Ram”? Do you consider yourself his heir, his successor, his political successor?
Look, first of all, with great respect—my name is Chandrashekhar, and I add “Azad” to my name because I have become free from mental slavery.“Ravan” is something the media people add. I don't know what their intention behind it is, but I don't use it myself. As for “Aazad Samaj Party”—it begins with the name itself. You asked, “Aazad Samaj Party (Kanshi Ram)...This is our party. Understand that the party is like our mother. Brother, it is because of it, because of its name, that we are sitting here in Delhi today. So when we applied to register the party, we named it “Aazad Samaj Party. I use “Azad” because I am mentally free. Six months later, we found out that another party was already registered under this name. So our Election Commission advised us to add another name to it. There were already parties with similar situations—the CPI, CPI(M), CPI-ML, Congress, Nationalist Congress Party, and so on. So we thought: why not add the name of the great leader whose ideology we are forming this political party around? So we added “Kanshi Ram” to “Aazad Samaj Party.” Because, as far as Manyavar Kanshi Ram Sahib is concerned, we are his ideological successors, not his political successors. We are the ideological successors of his ideas, his movement, his struggle and his dreams.
There is a perception among the public that there is a competition between you and BSP supremo Mayawati over Kanshi Ram's political legacy. Don't you think that by positioning yourself this way, Mayawati ji might feel that you are claiming or challenging her legacy?
No, she shouldn't feel that way. She has a very great stature. Thousands of leaders have emerged from this political school and are now working in different parties. Just as nobody has a copyright over Babasaheb, Babasaheb belongs to everyone. Anyone following Babasaheb's ideology, Phule's ideology, Shahuji's ideology, Chaudhary Charan Singh's ideology, or Kanshi Ram Sahib's ideology has a legitimate claim to say that they are taking forward the ideology these great leaders promoted. So I am not claiming anything from anyone. But I believe that great leaders are bigger than any party. They do not belong to any particular party, caste or region. You can find references to Kanshi Ram Sahib's work in Chhattisgarh, Maharashtra, Telangana, Tamil Nadu, Jammu and Kashmir—everywhere, from Kashmir to Kanyakumari. So if someone is carrying that ideological movement forward socially today, that is their right.
So you don't consider yourself to be in any kind of competition with Mayawati ji?
No. Many people want me to compete with her, but why would I compete with her? The reason is that she is no longer in power and when a community remains outside political power for a long period, it eventually loses even the rights it already has. Forget gaining anything further—even what it has already received gets taken away. In India's political system, a society that remains distant from political power for a long time has not been able to secure its rights, and whatever it has received gets taken away. Our people have been out of power for a long time. It has been 14 years out of power since 14 years.
Wouldn't it be better, as many people would say, since you both came from the same school and broadly share the same ideology, if you all worked together? Or at least coordinated during elections, reached an understanding, adjusted seats—something along those lines?
Taali ek haath se nahi bajti (It takes two hands to clap). It isn't entirely in my hands whether we can work together. For a long time, I tried to make this happen. But I have now stopped trying because the Aazad Samaj Party has its own identity today. We have representation in the Lok Sabha. And in the coming period, we will have representation in state assemblies as well. We came very close to winning three seats in Rajasthan, one seat in Maharashtra, and one seat in Haryana—sorry, Madhya Pradesh—in the 2023 elections .In Rajasthan, we missed three seats narrowly, and in Maharashtra, as I said, we narrowly missed the Amravati seat. Our representation is growing, and it is growing because we are working very honestly and very hard. So this is not something that is solely in my hands.
Have you ever had any formal conversation with Mayawati ji, or with her representatives? Has there ever been a possibility of the two sides coming together?
If such a possibility arises in the future, everyone will know about it. So far, no such possibility has emerged. She is working for her party, we are working for ours. Yes, we respect her greatly because she has worked for society for a long time. But the needs of society have still not been fully met. For example, suppose you say, “I have put trousers on someone, and they are good trousers,” but that person still doesn't have a shirt. Just because someone is wearing trousers doesn't mean they have become part of the mainstream where everyone else is fully dressed. My effort is to address these demands and. We are regularly working on these issues. And I believe that this time the Aazad Samaj Party will emerge as a major party in the Uttar Pradesh and Uttarakhand elections.
You mentioned Uttar Pradesh and Uttarakhand. One important question everyone wants answered is: will the Aazad Samaj Party contest alone or make an alliance with another party? Are talks taking place with the Samajwadi Party-Congress combination? Is there any possibility of an agreement going forward?
Look, I will tell you again: we want a large alliance. We wanted it in 2022, but it didn't happen. In 2024, we also spoke to the INDIA Alliance, but it didn't happen. That means they didn't want it. We still want it. Look, understand this: the current alliance in Uttar Pradesh, the one you mentioned, consisting of two major parties, is not enough to defeat the BJP. I want to say this very clearly: this alliance existed in 2017 as well. You know better what the result was. And then in 2022, another alliance was formed, which also wasn't enough to defeat the BJP in Uttar Pradesh. So if you don't create an alliance larger than that, how will you defeat the BJP?
After the 2022 elections, there was the Khatauli by-election, where we helped win a seat that had been lost three times, taking it away from the BJP. They say a by-election is an election of the government. After that, the opposition had very few victories in Uttar Pradesh. But understand this: in the Khatauli by-election, the entire government machinery was involved—the entire government, its ministers, Central ministers, everyone. Even then, we won by 22,500 votes.
So what exactly is the problem? Why isn't it happening? Whose side is it coming from? Is it about seats ?
We want discussion. The issue of seats comes later. First, there needs to be a discussion.
So there is no discussion happening right now?
If someone comes for a discussion and presents their proposal, then we will consider it. If we receive a proposal, we will take it to our core committee and say, “This is the proposal.” An alliance has to have some reasoning behind it, some issues and some policies. It's not as though an alliance is simply about someone wanting to become a minister or MLA. There are policies involved. The policies of previous governments have been very poor. I have many examples, but I don't want to go into them because I am not fighting those governments today. There are certain policies we stand for. For example, we want education to be free from Class 1 to 12 for everyone, and we want quality education. Look at the condition of government schools today. Buildings are falling apart and leaking. The cement is coming off. There isn't even a proper place for children to sit. The mid-day meal is so watery that the vegetables are thinner than water. They are basically putting rice in salt. There aren't enough teachers. If there are six subjects, there may be only three teachers. What can three teachers teach? There is no upgrading or training of teachers. Instructors aren't receiving their pending arrears, so they don't feel motivated to teach.There are many problems. Books aren't being provided on time. And there is no answer from the government about how much of the budget is actually being spent. There are many other issues—health policies, opportunities for weaker sections in technical education. There should be scholarships or zero-fee admissions for BTech, MTech, polytechnic courses. I want the same for MBBS. Look, this is my desire. Our party's manifesto says there should be no barrier to education. If someone wants to study and build themselves up and become stronger, the government should make policies so that there is no obstacle in their way. Whether they want to do MBBS, MD, polytechnic, BTech, MBA, MCA, MTech, become a lawyer and pursue an LLB, or enter technical education, there should be no barrier. Similarly, health policies should ensure that no one dies simply because they couldn't receive treatment.
The legal system should also function properly. Congress has had governments, the Samajwadi Party has had governments, the BJP has a government. Look at NCRB data. There are huge numbers of women being raped and murdered. Who will answer for this? What are the governments doing? People are being murdered. Who will answer for that? There is also the issue of reservation in promotions and reservation for SCs, STs and OBCs in the private sector.
The present government in Uttar Pradesh claims that the security environment has never been as good in the state's history as it is now , What do you think about that?
Just pick up your phone and give me the NCRB data for any year under this government. Ask any of your colleagues. Then give me an argument based on that data. I'm a lawyer. You tell me what the government says, but I can only speak about what the government actually does. The government was also saying that these Gen Z protesters were “gutter-born.” The government itself was saying these were not Gen Z—they used certain words that I cannot repeat for those children. Some called them fringe elements, some called them anti-social elements. For 25 days, you did not speak to the protesters, even though they were putting their lives at stake.
To bring women's votes into its camp, schemes such as Ladli Behna and similar cash-transfer schemes are being used. I believe this goes against Babasaheb Ambedkar's ideology. Babasaheb said that if votes are decided on the basis of money, it is like buying democracy. Today, what is happening? I come from a village background. During Gram Panchayat elections, a man would go out at night carrying a bag. He would ask which contractor's vote could be bought. He would give people money and bring them over to his side. These were often less-educated people who didn't understand the value of their vote. They would say, “The vote has been sold because of money.” Today, what is happening? “We'll give ₹20,000. We'll give ₹25,000. We'll give ₹40,000. We'll give ₹50,000.” You are buying votes, aren't you? And within six months of the election, these policies are shut down. I'm saying today, if the government says, “We'll give ₹50,000,” I will say, “I'll give ₹1 lakh.” Because this is the people's money anyway. I have no problem giving it to them. You will shut the scheme down two months later, after taking their votes. We won't. We will continue with education and health. Instead of ₹50,000, I'm saying give them employment worth ₹1 lakh. Develop raw-material industries and industrial areas. Create employment for women in rural areas. Don't make them people who have to keep asking for money. Strengthen their hands so that they can become permanent taxpayers.
You mentioned that it takes two hands to clap, and that there has been no offer from the SP or INDIA Alliance. What about the NDA? Has the BJP made any offer?
Even if the BJP made me Chief Minister, I would not go with them. I am a soldier of an ideological movement. I said this long ago. Even when I won the Lok Sabha election, I told everyone that no matter how big a position they offered me, I would not go with them. The reason is that I have an ideological opposition to them. And I'm saying again: we are people committed to a mission—people of Babasaheb Ambedkar, Phule, Shahu and Periyar. We cannot make ideological compromises.
There is a lot of discussion that you and Asaduddin Owaisi may contest elections together in Uttar Pradesh, Uttarakhand and elsewhere. How much truth is there to this?
There is nothing wrong with contesting together. So I believe that if a large alliance is formed, we will try to help build it. Whether Asaduddin Owaisi is part of it, or Pallavi Patel, or Sona Prasad Maurya, or many other parties that want to fight together. If such an alliance takes shape, we will try to build it. And we will tell Congress and the Samajwadi Party as well: “Come and join us if you want to defeat the BJP.” There is a small problem, though. In a democracy, the Constitution gives everyone the right to express themselves. But you don't give us an opportunity. You tried everything possible to defeat us. You campaigned against us. You fielded a candidate against us in Nagina. So you don't want our leadership to emerge. How can you say that you want the leadership of Dalits, backward communities and Muslims to emerge? We have worked hard to get here, so we know that you will try to stop us. That's why we want to ensure that opposition votes don't get divided and that the BJP doesn't get an opportunity. So we will try to build such an alliance. We will work and plan for it.
You mentioned Gen Z. Do you think this phenomenon will continue, or will it disperse after a few days? And secondly, do you see it becoming an alternative to established political parties in the future?
Look, Gen Z isn't currently associated with any one political party. It isn't even limited to the people who originally led the movement. A lot of people supported it. Even the Aazad Samaj Party and Bhim Army gave significant support to it. Anyone in the media who covered it knows this. And I personally made a commitment to Sonam Bhai on the 15th: “Give up your hunger strike on the 20th. I give you my word.” You can check my statement on record. I said that from Jantar Mantar to Parliament, there would be person-to-person participation, with young people involved .I gave them that statement, and I fulfilled it. So Gen Z will stand with whoever takes up Gen Z's issues—and the Aazad Samaj Party is doing exactly that. I have faith in Gen Z that it will not give another chance to people who have already been tested. Because the people who are telling them today, “We'll do this, we'll do that,” have already had governments. There have been paper leaks under their governments, scams under their governments, and lathi charges on movements under their governments. So Gen Z will not fall into their trap now. Gen Z will give good people a chance to fight for its issues. And when they get that opportunity, we believe we will prove ourselves by delivering on their demands.
In which direction do you think this is going? It is spreading everywhere. We saw it in Jharkhand, and now even schoolchildren are talking about it
I'm very happy about this. I'm very happy that it is spreading. It should spread. You must be happy about it too. You have a long experience in journalism and have covered Parliament for a long time. Look, this didn't happen before. They did a very good thing. They have done something that the opposition should have done. They played a major role in removing the fear that had developed. And I'm happy that the work we wanted to see is happening. Look, I'll say it again: education gives birth to questions. A government that has closed 94,000 schools cannot be working in the interests of education. A government that eliminates government jobs for young people, destroys the private sector, shuts down institutions—such a government cannot be pro-youth. A government that introduced Agniveer cannot be pro-youth. The government will have to go. I'm telling you again: it will have to go. It is historic that young people have taken responsibility onto their own shoulders. And these children are coming out onto the streets because they don't trust politicians. Absolutely, it is changing.
It is changing in Parliament and it is changing in the state assemblies as well.
When children as young as Class 9 go and sit outside a District Magistrate's office with legitimate demands, and the District Magistrate starts leaving through the back door, it is a big achievement.
Do you think the atmosphere in the country is changing?
Absolutely, it is changing. It is changing in Parliament and it is changing in the state assemblies as well. When children as young as Class 9 go and sit outside a District Magistrate's office with legitimate demands, and the District Magistrate starts leaving through the back door and then two days later a team is sent there to fulfil their demands and listen to their legitimate concerns, that means things are changing. When accountability begins to be demanded, when questions begin to be raised, when elected representatives tell Gen Z: along with questioning the media, question politicians and governments too. Ask them: “Why are you ignoring our demands?” Why did the Gen Z movement happen?
What was this sudden, overnight development? Or do you think many people believe that there was an atmosphere of complete suppression in the country, where there was no door left open for the children—or for ordinary citizens—and that the proverbial cup of patience finally overflowed? Is that what happened here ?
I'll give you two answers here, and one of them will be related to you.
Can I know your age?
67.
You're 67. Think back to your youth. Even if your parents scolded you, you couldn't forget their scolding for a very long time. That age is like that. A person doesn't forget support, and they don't forget humiliation. Gen Z—you understand this? This is an age that doesn't forget. They remember things even after many years. And they don't simply keep it in their hearts—they settle the score. So this change in the atmosphere, this long period in which we have suffered an undeclared emergency where religious inequality has been seen on a large scale, where social inequality has reached great heights, where government institutions and national institutions have been destroyed in the way they have where RSS people have been given freedom to enter various departments, where universities have been taken over, and where there has been ideological decline there has been a moral decline in governments. I have no hesitation in saying that. There has also been a moral decline in the media. Despite all this, the people have now taken responsibility into their own hands. There was a time when young people of this same age were fighting the British. I remember the hunger strike of Shaheed Bhagat Singh. During his 56-day hunger strike, there were several occasions when he asked for water because he was thirsty, but the British brought milk instead. They said he would not get water and told him to drink milk so that he could survive and continue his struggle.This is the kind of period we are witnessing. This is happening continuously under governments. In Uttar Pradesh too, children in Prayagraj are protesting. At BBAU in Lucknow, questions are being raised about poor food and about celebrating the birth anniversaries of great leaders. Across the country, young people are taking responsibility. And when young people take responsibility, my only expectation from them is that they remain constitutional. We are not Nepal. We are not Sri Lanka. We are not Bangladesh. We are a very large mother of democracy. Our Constitution is very powerful. I would tell all of Gen Z and Gen Alpha to ensure that whatever they do remains within the constitutional framework. We are people who believe in Babasaheb. Babasaheb said, “First and finally, we are Indians.” We must not forget that. All government property belongs to us. All these buildings, all these vehicles—everything belonging to the government belongs to the people. Remember that your protest must remain peaceful. Governments will make every effort to turn it violent and take it in the wrong direction. You must not allow that. You have to endure pain and hardship and make your movement successful. That is my message to the young people fighting for their issues.
A few days ago, even a few weeks ago, people believed that 2029 was a done deal—a formality. Suddenly, as you said, the atmosphere has changed considerably. Do you think 2029 would be any different?
The results were already against them in 2024.This government is standing on crutches. They couldn't keep the people who were with the INDIA Alliance together. They couldn't bring in the people who wanted to join them. They wanted everyone to sit in their respective chairs. I shouldn't say this because it will take time, but I want to tell you the same INDIA Alliance fought against each other in Madhya Pradesh in 2023. The same INDIA Alliance fought against each other in Haryana in 2024. The same INDIA Alliance, despite having an alliance, fought against each other on 10 seats in Bihar. The same INDIA Alliance fought against each other in Delhi. The same INDIA Alliance fought against each other in Bengal.Even though there was an INDIA Alliance in Bengal, and in Punjab they fought against each other. What kind of alliance is this that is trying to defeat one another and then talking about defeating the BJP? The people are defeating them. The people are making the decision. The people are the masters. The only thing is, there should be no stealing of votes. We are going to launch a major movement against EVMs. When I'm telling you this, and when your interview is published, many major leaders will start speaking about the same thing. I have come through movements for the recommendations of the Mandal Commission. I have fought for reservation in the private sector. I brought a bill on this issue in Parliament. After that, major leaders started talking about it. Today, the new people entering politics and doing new politics are being copied by the old leaders. This is the situation politics has reached now: young people are being copied by politicians. I'm telling you again: 2029 is still far away. There will be a lot happening in 2027 too. If everyone thinks about Uttar Pradesh instead of simply thinking about sitting in a chair, a lot can change.
Have you ever spoken to Rahul Gandhi or Akhilesh Yadav ji?
I shake hands with them every day.
But, any political discussion ?
Politically, as I told you, if there is any political discussion, if they bring a proposal, I will put it before my colleagues.
Many of your opponents say that the issues you raise are “anti-Sanatan Dharma” and “anti-Hindu.”
Okay. So how is talking about education anti-Hindu? How is talking about health anti-Hindu? And I want to ask: those who have looted in the name of Ram—are they anti-Sanatan? Or is anyone who doesn't fit your agenda automatically anti-Sanatan? We need to decide this. “Sanatan” is actually a word associated with Tathagata Buddha. It is a word from Buddhist ideology. So those who are looting in the name of Ram, those doing politics and taking votes in the name of Ram should not teach me what opposition to Sanatan means. I oppose superstition and hypocrisy. There is no doubt about that. I don't do this merely on my own; Article 51 of the Constitution gives me the freedom to adopt a scientific outlook. Okay? But I absolutely do not say that I oppose any religion. If you have any video in which I have opposed a religion, show it to me. I will certainly examine it. I recognize Articles 25 and 26 of the Constitution because they are enshrined in the Constitution .So why would I oppose any religion? But questions have to be asked, don't they? The Kanwar festival took place recently. Entire roads were cleared, with one side of the roads being emptied. But when people belonging to other religious traditions have religious faith—when followers of Dr Babasaheb Ambedkar, Phule, Jagatguru Satguru Ravidas, Guru Kabir and Tathagata Buddha— come and say they want to hold a procession or celebrate a birth anniversary, why aren't they given permission? Is their faith not faith? When Muslim people come to offer five minutes of prayer on Eid, why are police batons standing behind them? Don't they have religious rights? Don't they pay taxes? Is this not their country? Did they not contribute to India's independence? So why do you become silent there? Because you work according to an agenda. The government works according to an agenda. We don't work according to an agenda. When you can respect one religious faith for eight or ten days, then if many people are outside a mosque or praying for five minutes
—shouldn't their religious faith be respected too? Just because you are in power and represent the majority, does that mean you can do whatever you want? What kind of justice is this? Is this constitutional? Should followers of Guru Ravidas not be given permission? The same government has just started a procession from yesterday. But I guarantee you that every year thousands of applications are submitted to the government asking for permission to install statues of Babasaheb. Why doesn't the administration grant permission? Why doesn't it give permission for processions honouring Guru Ravidas? Why doesn't it give permission for processions honouring Tathagata Buddha? Why doesn't it give permission for processions honouring Guru Kabir? When you go around the world saying you come from the land of Buddha, why aren't people permitted to hold events celebrating Tathagata Buddha here? Does that mean you will respect your own faith but crush someone else's faith? That cannot continue. So accusations can be made against me. Make them. I don't care. When I came into this work, I had read that when you set out to do important work, you must be prepared for three things: accusations, humiliation and loss. I understand those three things, so they don't bother me. I am a lawyer, an educated person and an elected representative of the Lok Sabha. Tell me: what statement of mine is there? Anyone who opposes them is called anti-national. Is opposing Modi ji the same as opposing the nation? Is opposing the Bharatiya Janata Party government the same as opposing the nation? Since when did the government become the nation? A government is elected. It works for its people. Regarding women's reservation, we were asking: why aren't women from the SC, ST, OBC and Muslim communities included? Why aren't women from the Sikh community included? Why do our questions hurt you? Answer us: why shouldn't there be representation in government institutions? Our questions hurt the government. We aren't afraid of the government's agenda. We are nationalists. We are Indians. We are patriots. We don't need anyone's certificate for that. We are secular. We don't need anyone's certificate for that either. The Constitution of India is strong enough. It has given us rights. We don't need anyone's certificate for exercising those rights—not from any party, whoever that party may be.