Ratna Pathak Shah: The ‘Lipstick’ Experience & Surviving Bollywood

Maya Sarabhai or Usha Parmar from ‘Lipstick Under My Burkha’ - what does Ratna Pathak Shah choose?

I sat down for a chat with the oh-so-talented Ratna Pathak Shah and asked her if she had any apprehensions before diving into her brilliant portrayal of Usha Parmar in Lipstick Under My Burkha and also found out why she was missing from the big screen for a long long time. Also as a bonus - what she thinks of Naseeruddin Shah’s decision to never get back to direction.

Q. It was a delight to see you in a full fledged role on the big screen in Lipstick Under My Burkha, but the whole promotional phase and repeated interviews must have been exhausting for you.

Ratna Pathak Shah: Exhausting and interesting! Uhh! It’s not much fun talking about the same thing, every time four times-five times a day. But fortunately, this is a subject that I feel very strongly about. Gender, in our society, particularly in India has been an area of huge unfairness, and I do have things to say about it, I have thought about it a lot. So, from that point of view it was interesting to talk about this issue.

First of all, there’s hardly any conversation about our society in many ways. We usually are so superficial in our comments you know, and having “fun” as if an intellectual activity is not fun. So I found this part of it has been interesting but I can’t say that I want to do this kind of thing over and over again, it is very tiring.

Q. But before coming to Lipstick Under My Burkha, I just want to rewind to your earlier years. When did you consciously decide that you wanted to be an actor, I am assuming your mother Dina Pathak must've been a huge influence on you.

Ratna Pathak Shah: Yes! In fact, a negative influence in some ways. Because I found everyone looked at me and said, “Oh! Your mother is an actress, even you are going to be an actress”. And I found that very offensive and I said I’ll never be an actress. Which was stupid of me because eventually I did decide I want to be an actress and I definitely had the desire but it took me a long time to accept that desire to act.

I was very scared, being on stage to start with as a kid. I was not one of those show-off kind of kids, who was happy to perform. I was quite awkward and uncomfortable on stage, in the presence of others. But, I did a play in school, somehow from that point on wards, I found that I was able to think of myself as an actress. And I found the process of becoming another person, thinking like another person, very interesting!

Q. And was joining the National School of Drama a natural progression?

Ratna Pathak Shah: Not so natural because hardly anyone thought it was necessary to train. Even today, people don’t think it is necessary to train if you want to be an actor, “Woh toh god given gift hai”.

Q. Do you think acting can be taught?

Ratna Pathak Shah: Not taught, but it definitely has to be learnt. I don’t think I can take a person and force feed acting into that person. It’s not a medicine. But I definitely know that huge amount of skill development is required, if you want to be an actor. Huge! In all kinds of ways. And we have no places for people to train.

Even at the NSD, I found no acting teachers. I learnt a lot about theatre and many many different aspects of theatre. And I found those 3 years wonderful, useful in NSD but as an actor, I had to unlearn practically everything that I had learnt. So, it was a very interesting experience. I had to re-learn when I came out. And I think my whole life has been a process of learning after that.

Q. NSD and other colleges must’ve been thriving centres of independent thinking and activism during your time. Do you feel the youngsters today are more of conformists, more pliable by the media and the state?

Ratna Pathak Shah: I think that was probably true even in my generation. I remember borrowing ideas right, left and centre, from people I met, from conversations I had. Then I would spout off very happily, sitting in the college canteen, talk about communism without having read a word about it, etc etc. You know those kinds of fancy moments when you suddenly discover that, “Hey, I have a mind also and I want to exercise it and I’m just showing off”. So, I think that was true then also.

But, what was true also was we were being exposed to new things in a much more handleable manner. You saw one film in an early morning screening, it blew your mind. And then you thought about it. You read whenever you could. You tried to find things somewhere. You talked about it to your friends, tried to make sense of it, particularly new films that you saw - world cinema. When I saw Rashomon for the first time, when I saw Godard’s Breathless for the first time, I went - What! What is this? I don’t understand this, what do I do, I can’t make sense of this? So, there was so much conversation. So much learning together.

Now what is happening is, you’re getting information too quickly, and probably, too much before you have any time to process. So, what you’re doing is, you are borrowing ideas too fast, kuch hazam bhi toh karna chaiye na, seedha khaate jao, toh niklega hi, aur jo niklega vo kachra hi niklega.

Q. I just want to take a slight detour to your marriage with Naseeruddin Shah here. Today, as you know when cries of 'Love Jihad' float around, and Kareena Kapoor was disgustingly put on the cover of a right wing magazine a couple of years ago as an example of ‘Love Jihad’, I just want to get an understanding of the kind of atmosphere that prevailed during your wedding, the reactions from your family. A Hindu - Muslim wedding would not have been easy during that time either...

Ratna Pathak Shah: It was! Sorry! It was so easy. There was no problem. I mean nobody around me said anything. There was never any issue. We decided to do a civil marriage so there was never any question of conversion or anything, we’re not practising in any way, both of us. Religion is something we were born into.

I’ve got a lot of lovely things out of the things my family practised. Lot of beautiful ideas, lots of lovely stories, lovely songs, great food. So that came out of my being a Hindu and same with Naseer. So, it was no problem. I think only one member of my family suddenly woke up and said,” Are you going to convert?” and I said that’s none of your business frankly. But, that’s it.

I mean it feels like a different world, I can’t tell you what my generation has seen. What the generations after are missing. An India which was looking forward, an India which was thinking, “Ok we have to make up our own stories now”, an India which was thinking, “Ok what is Indian theatre? What is Indian film? Do we only do what the west has been telling us? What is us? Where are we coming from? What is it within our society that we need to change? What are the laws we need to have? What kind of education?” I mean, what a buzzy, intelligent India it was! Forward looking, we had well-educated people. People who had read, who had travelled. Who had open minds.

We didn’t have people who were looking back and saying - Golden Age of India was in the Gupta period and after that everything has been horrible. We met people who said, Golden Age of India is coming, you prepare for it, we’ll show you how to do it. I can’t tell you the kind of inspirational people I’ve met. We’re sitting here in Lower Parel, I remember what Lower Parel was like, in those days. I remember what India was like.

And I can see what we’ve done to this country, and how mean and small and corrupt, all politicians, all leaders of thought or at least most, have been. I can’t tell you how heart-broken I am, with the India I am seeing today. And the direction we’re seemed to be going towards. Having said that, I always meet people. Yesterday, we had a screening in a place where there was a bunch of 200 women who were seeing the film. The girls went to Gaiety, where they saw about 20 women with burkhas who were coming to see the film. There’s discussion, there’s comment, there are people who are talking.

I think the youth of India has someway benefitted, from the kind of thought process, the kind of manthan, that my generation and the generation before, did. But we’ve got an equally large bunch of people who are constantly puling us down, constantly taking us backward.

I’m broken-hearted, I don’t know what kind of India, my children and other children will see. A barren, waterless, dirty, ugly, mean, small-minded India. Just in 70 years? The dream has changed so much? I don’t want to be part of that kind of world.

Q. Recently on YouTube, I came across Idhar Udhar - a DD show from 1985 in which you featured with Supriya Pathak, though slightly dated, it made for a delightful watch. How was that experience and where did Ratna Pathak Shah disappear after that?

Ratna Pathak Shah: You won’t be able to make that today. Two girls and a man, unconnected, not in love. Living together, in a house, “Haww, Indian culture mein aisa nahi hota.”

As for my disappearance, that’s the story of the lives of most women in our country. Except for the three or four who make it, most actresses have nowhere to go. That happened to me too. Fortunately, I had somewhere to go, so I didn’t disappear. Fortunately, I got to do a lot of theatre in the meanwhile and a lot of television also. All of which helped me greatly in my understanding of an actress.

Idhar Udhar certainly was spectacular because that was the first time that I even thought that I could do comedy. I was offered a part, the first part I was ever offered and it was a funny television serial, a sit-com. I didn’t think of myself as a funny actress. I thought of myself as a dramatic actress. I was going to play Mother India, you know I wasn’t going to be a funny girl on screen. I wasn’t Tun-Tun material you know, that’s what I thought. See, how ridiculous my ideas of humour were at that time. And how badly served humour was in India. At that point my only idea of a female humourist was Tun-Tun. You know that was it. And my idea of male humour was Mehmood at the best. You know, what are your options? Dekh lo ap, band kitna narrow hai. Hai na?

Idhar Udhar was fantastic and it is the best thing that happened to me. It liberated me as an actress. I stopped thinking of myself as a dramatic actress and I could just think of myself as an actress. Fantastic, Love it!

Q. We finally got to see you in Yun Hota Toh Kya Hota followed by Jaane Tu Ya Jaane Na. Yun Hota... I thought was a remarkable film but it unfortunately didn't work and Naseer has sworn to never direct a film again, did you agree with his decision, was he so tormented by the experience?

Ratna Pathak Shah: Yes, he was and I think he knows the mistakes he made and he would very much go back in time and rectify the mistakes he made, if he could. But that has been done, that is the trouble with film, once it is printed it is done, this doesn’t happen in theatre, you can keep changing, keep exploring, keep growing that is why Naseer prefers directing theatre. Having said that I don’t think he should take that kind of stand like I wouldn’t do it again (direct a film). I think he needs to do it again, but yes do it with more skill and understanding. It was the first time and directors and actors do make a mistake.

There are very few actors who have turned into good directors, like Clint Eastwood for example. He is an unusual example, but Tom Hanks didn’t do so well as a director as many other Hollywood actors who tried direction, because direction is a very different ball game. And when you are acting particularly in India and you see one inept director after the another, you desperately want to say - ‘if I would have directed, then this particular scene I would have done it in this way’. There is an urge for you to become a director, but that doesn’t happen, the mode is very different, you have to think in a very different way as a director. You have to be like a painter, you are not a photographer, you have to create an entire world.

Q. How did you react when Alankrita Shrivastava came to you with the script of Lipstick Under My Burkha. Any apprehensions? It was Alankrita’s second film, her first film hadn’t done so well...

Ratna Pathak Shah: No. There was none, because that role was such an incredible role. I've never come across something like this and I probably never will again. I mean whoever was doing it, I was going to give it a shot for sure. You know first time, second time, third time, frankly - I have seen Naseer, I haven't done too much work but I have seen a lot of what Naseer has done and I've been on sets with him. I mean, sorry, there are some 10-time directors who still don't know their ass from the elbow. So, it's ok. On the contrary,  first-time directors,  second-time directors are full of enthusiasm. They've got to make it. It's a make or break thing for them. They are the people to hang with.

Q. It was very brave of you and the team to go ahead with the scene of Usha masturbating in the bathroom while reading the novel. The first and the last time I remember seeing a woman masturbating in a Hindi film was in Dev D. Did you at any point of time have a mental battle about it - “Is it really needed, how will people react”?

Ratna Pathak Shah: Yes! Definitely!  All these thoughts did go through my mind and Alankrita's. We talked about it also for quite a lot of time and there were things that I was very uncomfortable with and she convinced me, and beyond a point I saw that it was necessary. But, I did not feel the need for an extended amount of that thing and I knew Alankrita wasn't in any way using sex as a titillating part of the film.

On the contrary,  except for Usha, the sex is rather uncomfortable for everyone else. It’s unpleasant to watch as the audience for sure. There’s no pretty satin sheets, soft nice music, nothing! It’s grim as it is in real life, often.

So, I mean I trusted Alankrita definitely and we also realised that, I mean, I realised, that I was an actor and there are certain things that I need to push myself for and I just must do it. And it's not uncomfortable, particularly if you have a set, where everyone is really sensitive about it.

I think that was special, it may not have been possible... and it's not because Alankrita was a woman, maybe it was, but I'm not saying that was the only reason. It was also because Alankrita worked with the entire crew before we started work and she talked with them and she went through the entire script with them and prepared them that this is the kind of material that we are shooting, so remember it's not going to be comfortable, so please be careful in your behaviour, in your manner of speech, in the vibe that you create on the set.

A man directing the film, should've done that also. But I guess, Alankrita is a woman and she knows how awkward it is for women on the set, so she did that before hand. And the scenes were written so beautifully, and all that of course. But it's quite an extraordinary thing, the mood on the set that we managed to achieve, in those scenes.

We were shooting in a space that was a 10x10 space. We had the mori, the nalka, the basin and then the lights, the cutter stands, the people, the boom man, the camera and the DOP, not to mention the focus puller. So, there were like 15 people including me, in that little space. So, there was no privacy for a very private act.

If even one person had been slightly off, I would've found it very difficult to do, but not one was. Extraordinary achievement from everyone, I feel and, all the girls felt that. It wasn't like it was only for me because I'm an older person, a senior actress. No, it was the mood on the set.

Q. A lot has been said about the way the CBFC initially technically banned Lipstick Under My Burkha, but do you not find it alarming that the CBFC continues to do what it does, despite the Hindi film industry being such a powerful bunch, and despite several members of the industry having met with the Minister of State, Minister of Information & Broadcasting - requesting for a change, but nothing seems to change its regressive decision making.

Ratna Pathak Shah: It’s a society in the dying throes of an old idea. The idea of control within a society, the kind of control that we have exercised so far - Mummy telling you what to do, Daddy telling you what to do, God telling you what to do, Teacher telling you what to do, Government telling you what to do, you are only the recipient of a series of instructions and you live your life according to those instructions. That is a dead idea. But in our country it is still in its dying throes, so until it finally ends we will have to suffer this process.

But I feel the change has been made. The internet has been the most disruptive influence on many many aspects of society and censorship is something that has been completely blown apart by the online world. But the online world will also be eventually controlled, because information has always been important for the powers that be. Pehle toh unhone shastron mein bandh kiya, ki sirf brahman tumhein batayega ki tumhe kya karna hai.

Information is the source of huge power - and the government knows that, army knows that, police knows that, everyone knows that. That change where you trust people, that has not yet happened and we are a long way away from it. Toh bahut lamba yeh qissa jaega, is what I’m worried about. But yeh hoga, yeh manthan nahi hoga, yeh vish nahi niklega, toh uske baad amrit ka pyaala nahi milega apne ko.

Q. And then while watching Lipstick Under My Burkha, I see you in the trailer of Mubarakan and think - this lady is back with a bang...

Ratna Pathak Shah: (Laughs) All over the place! Ratna Pathak Shah month!

Q. And I am sure you take a Mubarakan as seriously as you take a Lipstick.

Ratna Pathak Shah: As an actor? Of course! I’m being paid for it. That’s my job I better do it right, because if I don’t, I won’t get more work.

Q. But as an audience you don’t look up to the Mubarakan brand of cinema as entertainment?

Ratna Pathak Shah: You know, I enjoy watching a caper, why not, I mean I love it! Same as everyone else. What I find inept about a lot of these is how badly told and how badly made these capers are. Agar aapko commercial picture banani hai, entertaining picture banani hai, toh banao na. Hum aapke saath hain. Lekin, I mean, we don’t trust our audiences. Now what to do?

Golmaal (Rohit Shetty’s), when the script was first read out to me, I thought it was a blast. The character of Johnny Lever for example, they had a fantastic character. He is the man who steals, he’s the boss of some gang, but, he’s constantly forgetting what he’s doing. So, he steals a haar and he’s forgotten what he’s done with it. Bahut safely kahin rakh diya and bhool gaya bechara kya karna hai. So, I thought that was a crazy idea. How nice to have a villain who’s constantly forgetting. But they don’t trust the audience. So when it was shot, you had this sound track going, (makes comic sounds) and Johnny had to do (makes comic sounds) main bhool raha hoon. Tab ja karke audience ko samajh ayega, because audience toh bechari gadha hai, unko toh kuch nahi aata. Now, that I find is very irritating. Agar aap audience ko convince nahi kar sakte, with your cleverness, to aap me kuch takleef hai.

Q. I am going to ask for your quick take on these questions, you have to choose and give me a reason for your choice:

Naseeruddin Shah in Tridev or Naseeruddin Shah in Mohra?

Ratna Pathak Shah: Tridev, he was entertaining although Mohra was also entertaining. But anyway, because I remember Tridev better than Mohra.

Q. Maya Sarabhai or Usha Parmar?

Ratna Pathak Shah: Why can’t I have both? Please give me both because they satisfy both kinds of aspects of me. I love playing Maya Sarabhai, what a chance to say all kinds of things. Asli zindagi me kabhi bol sakti hoon main aisa? I think like that sometimes, but I can’t say stuff like that to everyone, I’d be killed. Right? So, I love that and Usha, what a pleasure it was to live in Usha for a brief time. But how difficult it would be to be Usha for a whole life time. That’s a role that’s shaken me up.

Q. Declared Emergency or Undeclared Emergency?

Ratna Pathak Shah: Declared, then we’ll know what we’re fighting against, these are very dangerous times.