'No Bigger Paap than Taking Away Temple Donations': Sachin Pilot Exclusive
Speaking to The Quint, Sachin Pilot addresses his equation with Ashok Gehlot, UP polls and the INDIA bloc's future.
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As the BJP tightens its grip on India's political landscape and the INDIA Alliance grapples with internal strains, Congress General Secretary Sachin Pilot argues that the Opposition's challenge is far from over. In this exclusive interview with The Quint, Pilot speaks to veteran journalist Javed M Ansari about what he calls the BJP's attempt to engineer a "manufactured majority", the future of the INDIA Alliance, and the growing vulnerability of regional parties. He also expresses his outrage at the alleged irregularities in the Ram Temple trust, reflects on his equation with former Rajasthan Chief Minister Ashok Gehlot, discusses rising youth discontent, and explains why he believes the Congress can still effectively take on the BJP.
The political scenario at the centre has undergone a lot of change, and in the states. The Trinamool Congress (TMC) has been carved out, so has the Shiv Sena. There is now talk of the same being done to the Samajwadi Party (SP). The INDIA Alliance stands diminished. Under these circumstances, do you believe that the INDIA Alliance has a future?
Look at the mandate the people of India gave us in the 2024 Lok Sabha elections. The BJP had made claims of 400 paar, but they only won 240 seats. This was the single largest party with no clear majority. They then formed an alliance with Janata Dal and Telugu Desam Party (TDP). Now in the last two years, they had been passing bills as any government would pass. But of late, there has been a very concentrated attempt to get MPs on their side – to get them to join the NDA.
And like you mentioned, Member of Parliaments (MPs) from Aam Aadmi Party (AAP), Shiv Sena, TMC, have been lured or pressured to take sides, which is with the ruling government. Why is that happening? For the government to do its business — pass bills, budget etc — they don't need that kind of majority. The people of India gave them 240 in the NDA, and now they are creating a manufactured majority, which to my mind, has very serious political consequences.
I think the BJP and the Government of India are very keen to pass certain legislations that require a constitutional amendment.
They need two-thirds, which they don't have.
Two-third of present and voting. They tried to push the delimitation bill, in the garb of women's reservation. No matter what the Speaker and the Election Commission do, the people of India are watching. That you are creating a manufactured majority to fulfil your political agendas, which I think, one of them, is to have a delimitation of the constituencies.
The procedure for delimitation is to first have a census. Then, a Delimitation Commission. And then on their findings, you redefine the constituencies. This magic formula of 50% increase in seats is something that has come out of the blue.
What's a greater risk that we are facing today is that people are voting for certain individuals, certain parties, but in a few months, there is a somersault and what I called earlier is a manufactured majority.
Further, all of these regional parties are facing a serious crisis. Why? Who would have thought that the TMC, after 15 years, a strong regional party, would fall like a deck of cards? This is happening because the BJP has decided to fulfil its political agenda at any cost. And use whatever means possible. That to my mind is immoral, illegal, unconstitutional.
So it's a great cause of concern, but I can reassure you that we in the opposition are fully determined to take on this political challenge.
So how does INDIA Alliance and the Opposition intend to fight this politically? Because there is absolutely no doubt that the NDA and the BJP are doing everything they can to break INDIA Alliance constituents. And whatever is left, instead of coming together, there is more in-fighting. You are just jostling for space.
No, no. We had an INDIA Alliance meeting just a few weeks ago and I think the next one is in August. Mr Mallikarjun Kharge and our Leader of Opposition, Mr Rahul Gandhi have made a clear statement — that all of us are together, because this is a much larger fight. It's not about negotiating for seats in a particular state.
Yes, we all have our political landscapes which we want to secure, every political party. But we at INDIA Alliance are standing together and I think we'll have some hiccups because there are many conflicting objectives that parties face. For example, the Congress party and the regional parties will have differences — about seat sharing, about political strength and so on. But to take on the BJP's juggernaut and what they are doing — using all means at their disposal, to severely damage our conventional democratic setup, our parliamentary setup — that's unacceptable. So we will fight and ultimately, all these fights have to be taken to the people.
No matter what I say to you, no matter how many meetings we have, it is the people of India who are supreme in every respect. You will see in the coming weeks and months that we will galvanise, we will strengthen, we will go back to the grassroots and get the people's support behind us. And that I think is the only way forward.
How do you reconcile aspirations and differential claims? Uttar Pradesh will be going to the polls next year. There are huge differences in perception between the SP and the Congress party. The new general secretary in charge of UP, your new general secretary, says there has to be a 50-50 division. Whereas the last time, the Congress party just won two MLAs. What is your priority? Is it defeating the BJP or is it for individual parties to up their strength?
Unless parties are strong, we can't fight the government. We can't fight the BJP. The parties have to be strong.
You talked about Uttar Pradesh. It's a very important state. Samajwadi Party and the Congress had a formidable alliance in the Lok Sabha elections, and the results are there for you to see. Places like Ayodhya, where the BJP had claimed many things, ultimately it was the (INDIA) alliance that won. So the Lok Sabha elections are a lesson for the BJP also that when the opposition gets united, you don't stand a chance.
Who gets how many seats are details that will be fleshed out later. The talks are ongoing.
There hasn’t been any decision yet on who fights for how many seats. We'll come up with a suitable formula that's acceptable to both parties. But not only two, maybe there are other parties that have certain pockets of strength. We get everybody along on board and we'll take on the BJP.
There is a huge resentment against the functioning of the Yogi government. Especially what happened in the Ram Temple. It's unbelievable. People who have been selected, who have been picked, who have been screened by the highest authorities in this country are now running away with the donations people make. Poor people with their faith give some money to the temple and all that money is taken away. In my view, there is no bigger paap than that. The government is working outside the ambit of rules and regulations. All these things have been there for 10 years.
Numerically, I'll give one data point. In 2019 and 2024, both elections, the NDA polled less than 40% of the votes. That means two thirds of Indians who actually went out to vote did not vote for the NDA or BJP, voted for the opposition or independents or other parties. In Uttar Pradesh, Samajwadi party and the Congress party have fought the Lok Sabha together and I think we should, we will go together to defeat the BJP. Samajwadi Party, Congress and other parties will get together and defeat the BJP.
So when you talk of other parties, which other parties do you have in mind? Is there room for the BSP?
I think anybody who opposes the BJP as it stands today — their philosophy, their viewpoint, their way of breaking MPs, breaking MLAs, undermining constitutional bodies — anybody who stands against that is part of our alliance. Who fights, how many seats, which organisations, which parties, it's too early to tell. But anybody who opposes the BJP-NDA is more than welcome to join hands.
So you are confident that the SP-Congress alliance will hold and you will fight the election?
I see no reason why this alliance won't hold. We had a splendid performance in the Lok Sabha and I think it shocked many people that we got almost half or more than half the seats in Uttar Pradesh.
I think the Samajwadi Party got 36 or 37 seats and we had about 7. So it's a good performance in Lok Sabha where the claims [of BJP] were 70 paar in UP Parliament seats and 400 paar in all India.
Uttar Pradesh is the heartland of Indian politics and I think it's an important election. We feel very confident about what we have done as the Opposition. We are very strongly committed to fighting and winning Uttar Pradesh.
You spoke of chanda chori. You also hinted at the kind of angst in the ranks of the students. They are upset over paper leaks, they are upset over the future. But they seem to be gravitating towards non-political entities like the Cockroach Janta Party and not the established opposition parties. As a Congressman, when your party is the largest opposition party, does that not worry you that there is perhaps some credibility question or there is a lack of confidence in the Opposition also?
As the world changes, society goes through many changes also. And there are many ways and platforms to express yourself. In the 21st century, there are so many avenues and platforms for young people or the middle classes to vent out their anger and frustration.
Like you said, young people are feeling disenchanted because of the paper leaks, paper cancellations and so on. And there is no accountability. Even if mistakes happen, someone must have the moral courage to stand up and say yes, I am responsible, I am accountable and I am going to fix this. We haven't heard that from the BJP government. The education minister refuses to resign despite so many protests across the country.
Institutions, NGOs, associations, student bodies, everybody is up in arms. That's one aspect of it. But electoral math, fighting elections, staying in the booth, making sure votes come out, that machinery is a whole different system to operate. That only happens during election time. So I think the sum and substance of all this unrest and unhappiness is more of a concern to us as Indian citizens. Right?
Governments will come and go. But if young people lose faith in the system, that's a challenge that we can't face. If young people feel that, you know, ‘I work hard, I study hard, jobs are very few to come by and even those examinations that give those jobs are either flawed, or papers are leaked, the checking is done unprofessionally and there is no avenue to course correct’, if they lose faith in the system as we know it, then, we are looking at a very, very dark future.
And I think no Indian citizen in their right mind will ever want to go in that direction. Young people are everyone's responsibility. No political party, no leader, no entity has the right to play with the future of young people.
They don't give answers in Parliament. They don't respond to RTI queries. They don't have press conferences. There's no accountability. It's just management of headlines and brushing things under the carpet till the next big item happens and then the news cycle changes. But how long will this go on for? So we have to take them to task. And we stand committed to that.
One of the concerns that there is is that most political parties are manned by people who are well past their best. They must have in their forefront leaders who we can relate to or who can empathise with the youth. Do you believe there is a greater need for parties like yours, for bright youngsters like you to come forward?
Earlier, a generation change would happen with grandfather, father, son. Nowadays, a generation shift happens within 10 years. Things change so fast. People are so much more exposed with the internet and social media that we have to be cognisant of how young people are thinking and acting.
In my party, there is a huge recognition that the sands shift very quickly. The Congress party had a convention in Udaipur where we unanimously passed what is known as the Udaipur Declaration. That means 50% of all party positions, all, from grassroots to senior seats.
Has it been done?
Yes, it has. 50% of all party posts will go to people who are below the age of 50.
And you are saying it has happened?
Yes, yes, yes. If you look at all of our organisation — 50% posts for SC, STs, OBCs, women, minorities and people below 50. And don't forget, Congress was the party that, during Rajiv Ji's (Rajiv Gandhi's) time, much before the world recognised the 21st century, ushered that era of change — the change of mindset, technology, bringing young people in, giving them the right to vote at age 18.
So, that philosophy has been embedded in the Congress party since decades. Now, whether there is Sonia Gandhi or Mr Kharge, we are pushing forward with that philosophy. We are committed to protecting, serving and ensuring a brighter future for young people. And that, to my mind, is the most important thing India can do.
It is evident that the Congress has, in recent months, regained some political momentum. But one weakness that stares you in the face is the lack of a well-oiled, well-greased organisation.What do you think is lacking? And what is the biggest reform that the Congress party needs? How are you going to fix this?
Elections were fought on a level playing field. Today, all of that has changed. If you look at the judiciary, the bureaucracy, the election commission, the police, administration, every single entity in this country is compromised under pressure.
Last Lok Sabha elections, the Congress party's bank accounts were frozen just before polling. When you have such an ecosystem, then to question the strength of a political party, is also not appropriate because the Congress party remains the only political entity that across the length and breadth of India has presence, supporters and voters. In every state, every district and almost every village.
That footprint no other political party has.
Yes, we don't have the kind of resources BJP has, the kind of money power they plug into the election campaign. We don't have that. But we have the people with us. So it's wrong to compare because BJP still remains a party in, let's say, two-thirds of India and it doesn't represent all of India. But more importantly, it's not about being in government. It's about what mindset you possess. As a political party, the BJP is clinging on to power in every which way. You know, what happened in Maharashtra, what happened in Punjab, in the Aam Aadmi party, now what's happening in Tamil Nadu.
Fighting elections is one thing. What they say is that no matter who you vote for, India will win. Now that's not healthy for a democracy. Forget about comparing Congress, BJP, or other parties. Let's look at what we're facing as a democratic republic. That's more of a concern for us. There's no way that we will let these people get away with it. We are here to fight and we are here to win. And there's no way that we will let these people get away with it.
But how will you win without an army?
We have a strong army. Please don't underestimate the Congress party organisation. For 135 years, this party has survived through many challenges. There's always scope for improvement. But don't underestimate the strength of the Congress party's philosophy, ideology and the strength we have at the grassroots.
One of the biggest banes of the Congress party is factionalism. And I'm not saying it. Even your leader, the current Lok Sabha Leader of Opposition (LoP), Rahul Gandhi has said this. Rajiv Gandhi in his address at the Congress centenary celebrations in Mumbai said this. What kind of mechanisms can there be to bring greater cohesion?
I think every party has different viewpoints.
In the Congress, there is a lot more space to air your views, to give your opinions. And Mr Rahul Gandhi, LoP, himself said that we encourage difference of views, it's absolutely no problem. But once the party decides on a certain line, then we all fall together and stand by it. I can't say the same about the BJP. If anybody even has a view or can express that view, whether in the government or in the party, that's their functioning.
But you're right. We have very democratic, very open discussions. We debate for hours together.
You're saying that there's no factionalism?
No, there can be different viewpoints. But when the party decides something, for example, look at Karnataka. I mean, the change of power was so smooth and so unanimously done by the ex-chief minister to give forward a new, younger chief minister. And that happened without any trouble.
In such an old party with so many more leaders than any other political outfit, there's bound to be differences of opinion. But it's not detrimental to our party's functioning. In the end, what the leadership decides — the President or Mr. Gandhi — that prevails.
That's not always true. What happened in Rajasthan, the party had decided in favour of a change. The incumbent refused to yield. And ultimately, it led to the defeat of the party in Rajasthan.
In Rajasthan, we've always had five years of Congress, five years of BJP. And might I add, the last Rajasthan election in 2023, we got 71 seats out of 200, which is a lot better than our previous performances. But we still did not win that election, which is obviously not something that we are very happy about.
That whole incident, how it happened, it’s something that was not expected to happen. The then chief minister came out publicly and apologised for what happened.. But sometimes in politics, things don't fall into place. Go back to 10 years ago in Rajasthan, when we had a Congress government. We went to polls, and we got 21 out of 200. So, it's not that we did worse than last time. We were quite close. I think with a little bit more effort from all of our sides, we may have been able to form the government. But unfortunately, we didn't.
So, are you saying that the differences, your differences with Mr. Gehlot, etc., are all a thing of the past?
No, no. There are no personal differences. We can have different viewpoints. But ultimately, all of us are committed soldiers and workers of the Congress party. Whether in government, opposition, with any post, without any post, they are immaterial. Individuals don't count. It is the collective good of the party that's important. And I say this why, today more than ever, people of India need the Congress ecosystem to function again.
It's liberal, secular, open-minded, inclusive, everybody has equity, people are heard, there is independence, transparency, accountability. That is what people of India want. And I think that Congress and our allies can deliver that.
That's why it's important for us to fight for them and to come back to them.
People who believe that there are many in your party who don't want this. They appear unwilling to scale down their own ambitions and work together.
No, if anybody is doing that, then obviously, they are not committed fully to the country and to the party. There may be a few individuals, I can't vouch for it, but generally speaking, all of our party workers…
We witnessed recently an outburst from the former Chief Minister … he said there was a conspiracy to deprive him of the Presidentship of the party. Mr. Gehlot said that there was a conspiracy.
No, no, I think he clarified that statement. We should not read too much into it. He already clarified what he said.
Looking back, is there anything you believe you could have handled differently with regards to the political crisis of 2020?
Like I said, whatever we had to say was listened to, committees were formed, course correction happened, change in the government happened, ministers were made, there was more social balance, much more equitable distribution of the governing structures, and honestly speaking, we may not have won the assembly elections, but that paid off later on.
In the Lok Sabha elections, out of 25 seats, our alliance got 11. We had got zero before that. I think all the adjustments and issues we had taken up bore fruit, maybe not fully in the assembly, but in the parliament elections. Unlike the last two times, when we got zero seats both times, this time we got 11 out of 25. So, I think it did have some positive impact.
Any regrets about what happened and how things happened? About what happened in 2022?
Like I said, any election we lose, whether it's Delhi, Uttarakhand, Haryana, Rajasthan, Punjab, Maharashtra, wherever we lose elections, it's always regretful. We have to make sure that we win, and we have to win states. The Congress party has to win states, important states, where we have a one-to-one fight with the BJP, because that will give confidence, not just to the INDIA Alliance partners, but the people at large.
And I think we have to improve our strike rate in these northern states, where there is a bipolarity of politics, BJP-Congress. There, we must win. We have already won a few, we won Himachal recently. Punjab, also we did well.
I think Lok Sabha elections are a reflection also of what people are thinking. Don't forget our performance in Haryana. We may have lost the assembly by like half a percent vote, but we won more than half seats. Haryana, Punjab, Rajasthan. Our performance in Lok Sabha has actually been pretty good, and we hope we can maintain that in the next assembly elections.
There is talk that you might be sent back to head Rajasthan. Are you ready for the challenge?
I think we should focus not more on what the talks are, but what's happening on the ground. On the ground, we are working very well. Everyone has been given responsibilities. And in my own home state, we have a good team working right now. I am in charge of Chhattisgarh as General Secretary, and I am trying to do my best to bring the party back to Chhattisgarh. But as and when or whatever party decides to give me any responsibility, in the last 25 years, I have tried to discharge the responsibility with full honesty, commitment and integrity.
And whatever the party decides for me, I am more than happy to do it.
There is talk of the NCP and the TMC coming back to the Congress fold.
I think there is a clarification given on the TMC issue by the Congress party already. The idea is to work together and defeat the BJP. Who is joining what, all these talks keep happening in political circles. But like I said, the collective aim and objective of everybody, NCP, TMC, Congress, Samajwadi Party, all of us are determined to defeat the NDA. And that is and that should be our goal.